MH with Pencil number on gum

William Horsfield · August 2017

I recently purchased a mint hinged stamp - good price. When received it had the catalog in pencil on the gum center. When I mentioned this to the dealer that it should have been in the description he said nobody mentions a pencil mark on a mint stamp only on used. This doesn't sound right to me. I'm keeping the stamp but I feel it is a issue with the stamp and should have been mentioned in the description. Your thoughts?

Francois Lafrance · August 2017

It should be obvious that when a stamp is marked on the back, it is no longer mint.
I agree with you. It should have been mentioned.
Francois.

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John John H. Talman · August 2017

Yes, I feel a pencil note on the gum of any mint stamp should be mentioned but I would think that on a used stamp it could be easily removed in many cases and is not as important in any case. Sounds like the stamp was cheap enough in this case to make you ignore this dealers omission on the description. A pencil note on a hinge remnant of a mint stamp might not concern me as much as a pencil note on a lightly hinged or never hinged stamp.

Dennis Jorgensen · August 2017

When I started in this crazy business back in the 60's some approval customers would rant and rave because I did not mark the catalogue number and price on the gum side of the stamp in pencil. It probably should be mentioned in a description but I have never seen a collection or exhibit with everything mounted gum side up. Many collectors would have a small rubber stamp and stamp the gum side of their stamps to identify the stamp in case of theft, and many European experts would sign the gum side of the stamp if it were genuine.

John John H. Talman · August 2017

I have seen many hingeless albums where you could flip up the see thru page to show gum on stamps. If it was the signature of a European dealer on the gum I would think most dealers would hi lite this to show stamp is genuine. The reason dealers use small approval cards in many cases is so they could give some details of the mint stamp without putting a note on the gum especially if stamp is NH or LH. Can any dealer say that a collector has asked them to put notes on back of a better mint stamp. If they did ask for that perhaps a few wise words are in order for that collector.

Jeri Stathas · August 2017

The Penciled # should have been in the description along with anything else that would affect the gum or not be readily seen in a scan.

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John John H. Talman · August 2017

Must do these comments too fast. Meant to say European expert not European dealer. I am glad that Dennis said "It probably should be mentioned in a description".

Doug Noernberg · August 2017

I'm on board with noting it in the listing. I reserve the term "mint" for "as it came from the post office", and it did not have scott numbers written on the back in pencil as it came from the PO. To many this is completely acceptable, which is fine, but it should be noted in the listing, and I typically discount such stamps, treating the pencil like a minor flaw or blemish.

Dan Shilcrat · August 2017

Mr. Horsfield please tell us the date/age of the stamp in question. I think that needs to be a consideration. Over the years I have broken down older European formed collections & found pencil notes to be somewhat common. I never discounted those stamp or regarded them as blemished. In fact if the face was F/VF I discounted them very little. (Sometimes I was actually thankful for the help in finding the correct item in the appropriate catalogue) However, with a more modern stamp I too, like Doug N. consider a pencil mark as a flaw or blemish & it goes in my 'Donate Box'

Rod Tilyard · August 2017

Michael Generali · August 2017

The problem with notations on the backs of stamps is that often the information is wrong. Catalog number? Which catalog? Which edition? Catalog numbers can change over time, and the wrong identification with the wrong catalog number could have been made. Values on the backs of stamps? From where and when did the value come from? Regardless, the value is out of date, even the crossed out values with new values listed on the back like an outdated, worthless ledger sheet. Also, "expertization marks" are often counterfeited, so you can't rely on those either. Owner marks? What for? As the others have stated, marks on the backs of stamps is damage.

William Horsfield · August 2017

OK Dan - Maybe a better description would help - It is a MH Scott #589 US. The 0.08 Grant from the 1923-26 series Perf 10. In my opinion it is a VF-XF example of this issue - hence my reason for keeping it. I paid $5.50 w/$2.50 shipping for a VF/F value of $37.50. It is a Hip Stamp dealer and I hope he reads this and puts a note in future descriptions. I know we all have our own opinions and collecting wants, but I probably would not have bid on this stamp had I known. Thanks for all of your inputs.

Dan Shilcrat · August 2017

Bill.. You have a very nice Stamp at a great price.

John John H. Talman · August 2017

William Horsfield: Thanks for bringing this to our attention. You and many other buyers think it is important for sellers to point out that a pencil note on the gum should be pointed out and many dealers agree including myself. How much trouble could it be for a dealer to include "pencil note on gum" in the description. Don't we want to keep all the buyers happy?

Thomas Keesling · August 2017

I'm with Jeri, Doug and others here when it comes to describing sale items. I have always either scanned the back when there is an expert's or owner's stamped mark or described it if it's a lower value stamp. I also always mention the existence of pencil notations regardless of whether the stamp is gummed or not. I don't express my opinion in descriptions regarding a stamp's grade. I leave that to the prospective buyer. I don't pass judgment on the authenticity of expert's or owner's stamped marks. I'm not an expert and don't have the knowledge to make those judgments. I don't bother mentioning in my descriptions what the pencil notations convey. As Michael has already noted, they're not always reliable anyway. I try not to overlook anything that buyers will want to know.

Ron Lenke · August 2017

I just erase that pencil mark and if it takes off some gum, I re-gum it. Alternately, I will use an ink pen to make the pencil mark clearer and if the designation is in error, I scratch out the pencil mark and write the proper ID large enough to be clearly seen. For full disclosure, I print "see back remarks" in the border on the stamp's front side.

Michael Generali · August 2017

Well, if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right!

Except for the notation on the front of the stamp, I have seen stamps with everything else that you described. Red ink stands out real nice!

Luree Hughes · August 2017

I just don't get the "why" behind writing on the back of an unused stamp. Is that a practice that was once upon a time acceptable?

I also do not understand why someone would ink stamp the back of all stamps with their name. I have tossed several hundred stamps like that that I would deem damaged.

Michael Generali · August 2017

From what I have been told, people will work at their desks identifying stamps. They only have their catalogs, and so mark the stamps with the catalog number. At a later date, they will put the stamps in their albums.

Dealers used to mark catalog numbers and values on the backs of stamps when they let buyers go through stock books without the dealer so that when they were finished, the dealer could easily add up the price for the stamps that were bought.

I know dealers who marked the back of their stamps with their name/initials in ink when sending stamps on approval as a means to determine if collectors were swapping/pilfering their stamps. Ink can't be erased, and some people don't trust others. I can understand that as I sold through approvals back in the 1980s and 1990s. I lost many shipments to collectors who were thieves. You have to have a strong stomach to sell approvals. You learn how to send out approvals and who you can trust, but you can still get bitten by the tricks that some people play..

Ron Lenke · August 2017

on used stamps I re-enforce them by gluing them to thin cardboard and then using the stamps existing perforations, punch out the same in the cardboard. If it's a cheap stamp, I often simply cut off the perfs to create a straight edge vignette remembering to write the perforation gauge on the back

Ron Lenke · August 2017

Now I've gone back to my personal collection and trimmed all my stamps along the outer frame line. It has created stamps with superb centering! I'm rather surprised nobody has figured this out before.