Michael, I guess the AZ Postal Authorities make up their own rules. I used to use a Custom's Form on everything and was told it wasn't necessary for anything I send that is under 4 oz. They pick-up my mail everyday and are aware of what I send - so I don't know????
Doug, this is what kept happening to me. So, according to their rules, I mail all First Class International Mail under 4 oz without a Custom's Label. I've never had a problem.
LOL,I know I still can't get a straight answer on what is a flat and a non machinable parcel on the larger photo mailers. I look at it this way it's better to be safe then sorry on those things. I was told the same thing by one of the PO here too until I met a postmaster who know much more of the regs and showed me where it was in the IMM. (Which is what the PO is suppose to be going by)
If you go further down you find that if it is sent without a customs form the country you are sending it can confiscate the item if it's dutiable and it doesn't have the customs forms.
The crazy part of it is that if you go into the USPS site to calculate the postage,right on the web site it gives you a box on anything being sent internationally that you are to put the items value in. Then you go through and put in the size envelope and weight and even on the first class mail it will show that a customs form is needed. That is on their website that is showing that a customs form is needed. Makes sense if it's also in the IMM,which is what the clerks are suppose to go by.
If I admittedly don't always come to a completely dead stop at stop signs, how am I going to always observe customs on an overseas letter containing a $2.00 item? ;-)
I can tell you that OUR postmaster does care - so much so that I had to sit down with a couple of gentlemen from US Customs and found out that not only must ANYTHING that is not a document have a customs form attached, but that I was responsible to check and make certain that the item could be legally imported into the country I was sending to. The examples given made me give up EVER sending anything outside the US. The item I was sending was a an old postcard worth about a quarter to a friend in Canada as a joke gift. It was not a document and therefore legally must have a customs form attached. Keep in mind that every piece of mail sent is photographed and "saved" - that is why our post office no longer accepts mail without a return address.
The government wants to know about every dollar I acquire and spend, the priest wants to know about every impure thought I have, and my doctor wants to know how often I get up to take a pee at night....geez!
Seriously I don't get where the USPS wants to head with their customs forms. I live in Australia and buy many 100's of $'s worth of stamps from the USA every month.
I can count on 1 hand how many times Ive had a customs form or label attached to anything I've received so I'm pretty certain the vast majority of people I buy from don't use them.
It's a shame really as I've previously been in contact with Thomas to buy a few select items from him and there are a few other sellers I have been keen to buy from but they flat out refuse to sell outside the US.
Might have to find myself a US based mailing proxy who will forward items on !
I send many orders to Australia and never have had to use a customs form. Is everything 1st class international and treat it as a letter. Check out my store. Azart Cheers, Tony Arlotta
we post everywhere in the world, we only use customs declarations on parcels, not letters and we are in the UK. yet to make a sale on this site , but we will sell anywhere anyway
In this and other discussions elsewhere, I avoided bringing up the USPS customs issue because it was obvious several sellers hadn't been complying fully with USPS and Customs requirements. So, now that others have brought this out in the open in this thread, I'll expand on my previous comment explaining why I stopped shipping overseas about 17 months ago.
The Customs form requirement is a major reason I stopped shipping overseas. The clerks at my nearest post office repeatedly made it clear that Customs forms were required for all merchandise being mailed overseas. I think this initially came up when I was trying to insure stamps I was mailing in a standard business envelope.
For several years before I knew about the blanket USPS Customs form requirement, I had been using note card and greeting card envelopes with hand-written addresses to make all of my domestic and overseas mailings look as unobtrusive as possible. That practice had nothing to do with Customs issues. It was just a precautionary measure. Upon learning about the blanket Customs form requirement, I continued using the same mailing procedure for lower value sales, both domestic and overseas—until 17 months ago when I stopped shipping overseas. (Other than speed limits, I’ve always been pretty good about observing the laws of the land and was uncomfortable knowing I was violating the Customs/USPS Customs form requirement.)
Of course, I blame overzealous US Customs and USPS officials for creating this unnecessary regulatory morass. Theirs has been a typical bureaucratic over-reaction to a problem that, honestly, needed to be addressed. However, the scope of their response to the problem is off the charts. Speaking as a former bureaucrat myself, Customs and USPS undoubtedly found it easier to apply a blanket "fix" to their customs problem rather than dealing with the specific problem in a more suitable and refined manner. One of the numerous unintended consequences of their over-reaction has been the creation of a large new class of miscreants who routinely violate the Customs and USPS regulations, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. We see this happen repeatedly. Whether it’s the tax codes, environmental laws and regulations, the regulation of financial institutions, or any number of other regulated aspects of our lives, the unexpected and unintended consequences can obscure the intended benefit of the laws, regulations, codes, etc. that are enacted to deal with specific problems. The politicians and bureaucrats have the capacity to do a better job, but it’s easier not to.
Mark Jones said: "I can count on 1 hand how many times Ive had a customs form or label attached to anything I've received so I'm pretty certain the vast majority of people I buy from don't use them."
Mark, whenever a customs form is used, you'll see the form attached to the envelope. If the form wasn't attached to the envelope, then the sender didn't fill out the form when sending that envelope.
Mark Jones said: "Might have to find myself a US based mailing proxy who will forward items on !"
I've encountered 4 individuals who are doing this, but one was on eBay and unrelated to stamp sales. That one and at least one other were in Europe. It seems like one was in Japan. All were buying somewhat higher value items. I also have a friend who occasionally serves as a proxy for a Canadian buying postcards in the US.
"Of course, I blame overzealous US Customs and USPS officials for creating this unnecessary regulatory morass."
Yes, since I worked for the Federal government I was told that future transgressions (even unintentional ones) could lead to disciplinary action up to and including removal. This over a used quarter postcard sent as a gift. That is why I will never again ship anything outside of the US.
I understand everyone does it - it's like not filing business taxes on a "hobby" business. I reviewed thousands of loan applications over the years where income was claimed as an asset for approval of the loan but they did not even file a Schedule "C" on their tax return. The answer was always "Oh, I didn't make enough money to pay taxes". Sorry but we can't count income that you don't claim on your taxes.
The whole thing with the customs forms is because the US is a member of the UPU
From the Department of State about the UPU
The Universal Postal Union
What is the Universal Postal Union? Established in 1874, the Universal Postal Union (UPU), with its headquarters in the Swiss capital Bern, is the second oldest international organization.
The UPU coordinates international postal policies and procedures, including standards, remuneration, technical assistance, and collaboration with key stakeholders. All member countries are signatories of the UPU Convention, an intergovernmental treaty, making the UPU itself the primary forum for cooperation between designated postal operators worldwide.
Why is it Important? Without the UPU, postal operators would have to negotiate separate bilateral agreements with every other operator with which it wanted to exchange international mail. More importantly, without the UPU, countries could not be guaranteed mail service to and from nearly every other nation around the globe.
The requirement for the customs forms has been there for decades. It's not something new.
To say that everyone does it is not correct Carol. To say that many do it is correct. (I use customs forms on any international sales with an invoice included) The big reason they are cracking down on it now is because of Ebay and so many people misusing and not using the customs forms when they are suppose to.
I'm not sure that over half of the small dealers use the forms - my guess would be quite a bit less. The double whammy is that if you use stamps and a customs form the letter must be handed over the counter to a clerk which usually involves waiting in line.
Most of my sales are in the US or Canada - however for the handful of international shipments I have had over the years - they all fit nicely in a small envelope. I stick an international stamp on the envelope - no customs form and never have had an issue with it. I guess I have been playing russian roulette. !
Carol said: "The double whammy is that if you use stamps and a customs form the letter must be handed over the counter to a clerk which usually involves waiting in line."
There is the added time necessary to fill out the Customs form. I do that at home before going to the PO. At my nearest PO there is no place to do that while waiting in line. In my case, lines are usually 5-10 deep when I arrive at the PO with either one or two clerks at the counter. It is not like the old days when a third clerk would often come out to help when the line is longer.
I have a USPS account and use there scale ect. On International parcels that require a customs form I fill it out place it on the parcel make sure I have correct postage applied and put in my mail box. The next day I get the stamped customs stub returned in the mail. It pays to keep your mail man With refreshments and food gift cards- most like McDonald's and Starbucks. Its worth $5-10 per month to keep him happy!!!!!!
Ross, you've probably never had your mail tampered with in your neighborhood mailboxes. You must have had the same carrier for more than a year or so and apparently don't have USPS changing your route periodically. Maybe you don't have a carrier who leaves items in your mailbox that require your signature. Circumstances vary across the country. In some situations, the outgoing mail is safer when delivered to the PO.
Thomas I have the same carrier for 7 years and only 3 in the 16 years I've lived here.. And yes i have those droopy pants wearing dis respecting thugs in my area but there crap aint tolerated on my block at all. Almost all of the folks on my block have been here for many years and we all look out for each other along with security camera's. And they have learned that we will prosecute. I started with the bay in 99 and learned very quick that the mailman can be your friend or foe.
Out of interest I decided to go through a box of envelopes that I've kept here from this last years mailings that I've received. There are 81 envelopes from the US from over 49 different sellers, not a single one has a customs declaration attached anywhere.
Postage rates vary on them from the cheapest at $1.16 to a beautiful registered envelope bearing 8 x $2 inverted jenny's and 2 x 8c champions of liberty to make up a rate of $16.16 mailed from West Milwaukee which again doesn't have a customs label!
To address Michael Duehr's post above : Australia is also a member of the UPU and we have completely different regulations to the US.
Sending a letter or a document
weigh less than 500g, have a rectangular shape, be no larger than a B4 envelope (260 x 360 x 20mm), and be no thicker than 20mm.
Please note: If you're sending items other than printed material - or valued over $500 - with our International Economy Air letter service, you'll need to attach a CN22 or CN23 customs form.
You don't need a customs form to send a letter or a document here either. Only merchandise, regardless of value, and regardless of whether or not you are selling it or giving it as a gift. Obviously many dealers choose to ignore the law.
Excerpt from the USPS Postal Exolorer give you an idea of their intent.
123.61 Conditions
First-Class Mail International Letters and Large Envelopes (Flats), Including International Priority Airmail (IPA) Items and International Surface Air Lift (ISAL) Items (Maximum weight limit: 4 pounds)
All items containing any goods, regardless of weight. $400 or less (Form) 2976 Merchandise is permitted unless prohibited by the destination country. Over $400 Prohibited Items over $400 must be mailed using Global Express Guaranteed service, Priority Mail Express International service, or Priority Mail International service.
123.63 Documents and Merchandise
In Exhibit 123.61, the “Type of Item” column has several references to “documents.” For this purpose, “documents” refers only to printed documents, not to electronic storage media or devices such as CDs, DVDs, or flash drives.
Examples of documents include the following: a. Audit and business records. b. Personal correspondence. c. Circulars. d. Pamphlets. e. Advertisements. f. Written instruments not intended to be resold. g. Money orders, checks, and similar items that cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery.
Examples of items that do not qualify as documents — rather, they are considered merchandise, so the sender is required to apply a customs declaration form and declare a value — include the following:
a. CDs, DVDs, flash drives, video and cassette tapes, and other electronic storage media — regardless if they are blank or if they contain electronic documents or other prerecorded media. b. Artwork. c. Collector or antique document items. d. Books. e. Periodicals. f. Printed music. g. Printed educational or test material. h. Player piano rolls. i. Engineering drawings. j. Blueprints. k. Film. l. Negatives. m. X-rays. n. Separation negatives. o. Photographs.
Please reread what it says. I am pretty sure that you would need to attach a customs form for merchandise. It's not worded clearly
Please note: If you're sending items other than printed material - or valued over $500 - with our International Economy Air letter service, you'll need to attach a CN22 or CN23 customs form.
I think the valued over $500 is referring to the printed material not merchandise.
And the whole with using the customs forms also comes on the receiving end of those mailings. It's the CYB principle. If you are not using customs forms and wondering why you may have so many missing worldwide orders is because those letters don't have the customs forms and they can tell from the letter that it contains merchandise. If the customs agents in the other country suspect that letter they have every right to inspect that letter. If it doesn't have a customs form and they find that it does contain merchandise,they have a whole host of remedies to deal with it. They can fine the receiver,if there is no invoice they can guesstimate the customs fees and duties,they can even seize the letter. (Where do you think customs gets some of the stuff for their seized auctions?)
Before the migration, my sales were better on Bidstart. Since the migration, sales have been very slow. Only one decent sale. Searching on HipStamp is a lot different than Bidstart. Hopefully once the buyers figure it out, sales will return.
Comments
LOL,I know I still can't get a straight answer on what is a flat and a non machinable parcel on the larger photo mailers. I look at it this way it's better to be safe then sorry on those things. I was told the same thing by one of the PO here too until I met a postmaster who know much more of the regs and showed me where it was in the IMM. (Which is what the PO is suppose to be going by)
If you go further down you find that if it is sent without a customs form the country you are sending it can confiscate the item if it's dutiable and it doesn't have the customs forms.
Keep in mind that every piece of mail sent is photographed and "saved" - that is why our post office no longer accepts mail without a return address.
I can count on 1 hand how many times Ive had a customs form or label attached to anything I've received so I'm pretty certain the vast majority of people I buy from don't use them.
It's a shame really as I've previously been in contact with Thomas to buy a few select items from him and there are a few other sellers I have been keen to buy from but they flat out refuse to sell outside the US.
Might have to find myself a US based mailing proxy who will forward items on !
I send many orders to Australia and never have had to use a customs form. Is everything 1st class international and treat it as a letter.
Check out my store. Azart
Cheers,
Tony Arlotta
The Customs form requirement is a major reason I stopped shipping overseas. The clerks at my nearest post office repeatedly made it clear that Customs forms were required for all merchandise being mailed overseas. I think this initially came up when I was trying to insure stamps I was mailing in a standard business envelope.
For several years before I knew about the blanket USPS Customs form requirement, I had been using note card and greeting card envelopes with hand-written addresses to make all of my domestic and overseas mailings look as unobtrusive as possible. That practice had nothing to do with Customs issues. It was just a precautionary measure. Upon learning about the blanket Customs form requirement, I continued using the same mailing procedure for lower value sales, both domestic and overseas—until 17 months ago when I stopped shipping overseas. (Other than speed limits, I’ve always been pretty good about observing the laws of the land and was uncomfortable knowing I was violating the Customs/USPS Customs form requirement.)
Of course, I blame overzealous US Customs and USPS officials for creating this unnecessary regulatory morass. Theirs has been a typical bureaucratic over-reaction to a problem that, honestly, needed to be addressed. However, the scope of their response to the problem is off the charts. Speaking as a former bureaucrat myself, Customs and USPS undoubtedly found it easier to apply a blanket "fix" to their customs problem rather than dealing with the specific problem in a more suitable and refined manner. One of the numerous unintended consequences of their over-reaction has been the creation of a large new class of miscreants who routinely violate the Customs and USPS regulations, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. We see this happen repeatedly. Whether it’s the tax codes, environmental laws and regulations, the regulation of financial institutions, or any number of other regulated aspects of our lives, the unexpected and unintended consequences can obscure the intended benefit of the laws, regulations, codes, etc. that are enacted to deal with specific problems. The politicians and bureaucrats have the capacity to do a better job, but it’s easier not to.
Mark, whenever a customs form is used, you'll see the form attached to the envelope. If the form wasn't attached to the envelope, then the sender didn't fill out the form when sending that envelope.
I've encountered 4 individuals who are doing this, but one was on eBay and unrelated to stamp sales. That one and at least one other were in Europe. It seems like one was in Japan. All were buying somewhat higher value items. I also have a friend who occasionally serves as a proxy for a Canadian buying postcards in the US.
Yes, since I worked for the Federal government I was told that future transgressions (even unintentional ones) could lead to disciplinary action up to and including removal. This over a used quarter postcard sent as a gift. That is why I will never again ship anything outside of the US.
I understand everyone does it - it's like not filing business taxes on a "hobby" business. I reviewed thousands of loan applications over the years where income was claimed as an asset for approval of the loan but they did not even file a Schedule "C" on their tax return. The answer was always "Oh, I didn't make enough money to pay taxes". Sorry but we can't count income that you don't claim on your taxes.
From the Department of State about the UPU
The Universal Postal Union
What is the Universal Postal Union?
Established in 1874, the Universal Postal Union (UPU), with its headquarters in the Swiss capital Bern, is the second oldest international organization.
The UPU coordinates international postal policies and procedures, including standards, remuneration, technical assistance, and collaboration with key stakeholders. All member countries are signatories of the UPU Convention, an intergovernmental treaty, making the UPU itself the primary forum for cooperation between designated postal operators worldwide.
Why is it Important?
Without the UPU, postal operators would have to negotiate separate bilateral agreements with every other operator with which it wanted to exchange international mail. More importantly, without the UPU, countries could not be guaranteed mail service to and from nearly every other nation around the globe.
http://www.state.gov/p/io/ipp/
The requirement for the customs forms has been there for decades. It's not something new.
To say that everyone does it is not correct Carol. To say that many do it is correct. (I use customs forms on any international sales with an invoice included) The big reason they are cracking down on it now is because of Ebay and so many people misusing and not using the customs forms when they are suppose to.
There is the added time necessary to fill out the Customs form. I do that at home before going to the PO. At my nearest PO there is no place to do that while waiting in line. In my case, lines are usually 5-10 deep when I arrive at the PO with either one or two clerks at the counter. It is not like the old days when a third clerk would often come out to help when the line is longer.
Postage rates vary on them from the cheapest at $1.16 to a beautiful registered envelope bearing 8 x $2 inverted jenny's and 2 x 8c champions of liberty to make up a rate of $16.16 mailed from West Milwaukee which again doesn't have a customs label!
To address Michael Duehr's post above : Australia is also a member of the UPU and we have completely different regulations to the US.
Sending a letter or a document
weigh less than 500g,
have a rectangular shape,
be no larger than a B4 envelope (260 x 360 x 20mm), and
be no thicker than 20mm.
Please note: If you're sending items other than printed material - or valued over $500 - with our International Economy Air letter service, you'll need to attach a CN22 or CN23 customs form.
Excerpt from the USPS Postal Exolorer give you an idea of their intent.
123.61 Conditions
First-Class Mail International Letters and Large Envelopes (Flats), Including International Priority Airmail (IPA) Items and International Surface Air Lift (ISAL) Items (Maximum weight limit: 4 pounds)
All items containing any goods, regardless of weight. $400 or less (Form) 2976 Merchandise is permitted unless prohibited by the destination country.
Over $400 Prohibited Items over $400 must be mailed using Global Express Guaranteed service, Priority Mail Express International service, or Priority Mail International service.
123.63 Documents and Merchandise
In Exhibit 123.61, the “Type of Item” column has several references to “documents.” For this purpose, “documents” refers only to printed documents, not to electronic storage media or devices such as CDs, DVDs, or flash drives.
Examples of documents include the following:
a. Audit and business records.
b. Personal correspondence.
c. Circulars.
d. Pamphlets.
e. Advertisements.
f. Written instruments not intended to be resold.
g. Money orders, checks, and similar items that cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery.
Examples of items that do not qualify as documents — rather, they are considered merchandise, so the sender is required to apply a customs declaration form and declare a value — include the following:
a. CDs, DVDs, flash drives, video and cassette tapes, and other electronic storage media — regardless if they are blank or if they contain electronic documents or other prerecorded media.
b. Artwork.
c. Collector or antique document items.
d. Books.
e. Periodicals.
f. Printed music.
g. Printed educational or test material.
h. Player piano rolls.
i. Engineering drawings.
j. Blueprints.
k. Film.
l. Negatives.
m. X-rays.
n. Separation negatives.
o. Photographs.
Please reread what it says. I am pretty sure that you would need to attach a customs form for merchandise. It's not worded clearly
Please note: If you're sending items other than printed material - or valued over $500 - with our International Economy Air letter service, you'll need to attach a CN22 or CN23 customs form.
I think the valued over $500 is referring to the printed material not merchandise.
If you are not using customs forms and wondering why you may have so many missing worldwide orders is because those letters don't have the customs forms and they can tell from the letter that it contains merchandise. If the customs agents in the other country suspect that letter they have every right to inspect that letter. If it doesn't have a customs form and they find that it does contain merchandise,they have a whole host of remedies to deal with it. They can fine the receiver,if there is no invoice they can guesstimate the customs fees and duties,they can even seize the letter. (Where do you think customs gets some of the stuff for their seized auctions?)
CYB
Food for thought that may keep you hungry for more.