Counterfeit Stamps
Mark Rosenberg
Staff
This discussion was created from comments split from: Persia / Early Iran.
Mark Rosenberg
Staff
Comments
I listed a few Austrian stamps last year that were issued immediately after WWII and consisted of Hitler-head overprints. Again, Scott states that counterfeits exist. While some of these stamps had some nice catalog values, I listed them each at $0.25 and noted Scott's warning about counterfeits. Again, I just couldn't justify spending the money to have the overprints authenticated since the expert opinion would have cost more than what I would have sold them for even if the overprints were authentic.
I will be listing a few Bangkok, Bushire and Batum stamps in a few months where all have overprints. I have had all them expertized since they have a catalog value that justified the expense.
I listed a number of French Equatorial Africa stamps last year, with a number of the airmail stamps overprinted. Two of them, C9 and C11, are noted in Scott as having counterfeit overprints. Each in mint-hinged condition has a catalog value of $240. The problem with those was that the APS expertizing committee returned them to me without an opinion; it turned out that they didn't have any experts available that would render an opinion on these stamps. So those I listed stating that the overprint might be counterfeit but that I could not obtain an opinion from the APS. Their overprints looked like the other stamps that also had overprints but were not noted as having been counterfeited, so I priced them as authentic.
The only other place that I checked out for obtaining an opinion on those French Equatorial Africa stamps was Sismondo Stamps. The only problems that I noted there was that his expert service would cost at least twice as much as the APS and that ol' Sergio promised to scribble his authentication mark on the back in pencil. I consider stamps with pencil marks on the back damaged, so that eliminated him as a possible expert to go to for an opinion. I never pursued using any other expert committees for those stamps.
If anyone has any issues with how I handled these individual stamp issues, I would like to hear your opinion. I recoil when someone says "destroy" as a way to handle possible counterfeit stamps or overprints, and even for damaged stamps that have a reasonable catalog value in undamaged condition, so please don't go overboard in your condemnation if that is your opinion. Just a simple "I would destroy them" is sufficient.
Richard Pauls (okstamps)
https://www.hipstamp.com/store/okstamps
Sellers who state that they don't know anything about what they are offering for sale, and tell potential buyers "caveat emptor" on their own items listed for sale, well I tend to steer clear from those.
Scott does state that authentication marks on the backs of stamps should not be considered as damage. Of course, there is the problem of forged authentication marks too....
I appreciate your response. Having been a buyer for decades, I know how I wished sellers would operate and try to follow through with my own stamp sales.
I started collecting in the mid-1970's, probably just about the time the Never Hinged craze started. It influenced me to always try to find the most pristine copy of a stamp available, both front and back. I know before that time that the back of the stamp was kind of considered irrelevant; lots of notes in pencil, all kinds of dealer/owner/expert stamps and signatures, hinging and more hinging, etc. I guess my thinking is that if the APS expert committee can provide a nice certificate with a color photograph of the stamp that others offering their expert opinion could do the same. In this day and age I see someone signing the back of the stamp as evidence of their vanity more than anything else.
Richard Pauls (okstamps)
The listing of replica stamps is not permitted on our Site. If we receive reports or identify listings that are replicas (whether they purport to be replica or legitimate), we reserve the right to suspend your account.
Since the management of this site does monitor these posts, I guess I will find out soon enough. If my posts to the Forum cease and my store disappears, you will know what happened. In the meantime, those who profess ignorance and leave the entire process of detecting forgeries up to buyers without warning (caveat emptor) will continue on their merry way.
I read that paragraph several times in the Terms for this site. I took that to mean the individuals who sell what they call "replica" stamps, stamps that they have produced by modern reproduction methods (good copiers) that are meant to be substituted for authentic stamps that would be too expensive for most collectors to purchase. I have seen offerings of such "replica" stamps on other sites and took that to mean what was being described in the paragraph copied above.
I do hope that someone from HipStamp management does comment on this to set the record straight.
So as a seller, the perfect course to just feign ignorance, list such stamps without any mention as to being a possible forgery, price them as authentic, provide a good image and to let the buyers figure things out. This would definitely be a good example of the law of unintended consequences. After all, your statement above is only if I myself believe they may be counterfeit would you remove the items from my store. You are giving a huge advantage to sellers that are unscrupulous and will just list all possible forgeries as authentic and price them as such.
So should I remove those two French Equatorial Stamps that I have listed (C9 and C11) because I don't know for sure that the overprints are authentic even though they probably are? Are you going to make this determination for me?
I have oodles of used German stamps from the inflation period of the early 1920's. The used stamps are rare, CTO examples are plentiful. Because I can't determine myself whether the cancels are authentic postal cancels or are CTO examples I can't sell them because I can't determine for sure which is the case?
I have many used early West Berlin issues where again the stamps that are canceled with authentic postal cancels are worth in some cases quite a bit of money while those with manufactured cancels are not. I am planning on having the most expensive ones expertized to make sure, but most of the issues even with authentic cancels are not priced high enough to make expertization cost effective. So I can only list the few high priced ones and must not list the lower priced ones?
I have a number of sets of lower priced Batum stamps. Scott states that counterfeits abound of all Batum issues. Does that mean that I can't list these stamps because I am not sure that they are authentic? By the way, I just checked the first page of the Batum listing and one early stamp had been authenticated. Does that mean you are going to remove all the others? Or you are not going to remove them because in no place in their description do the sellers state whether what they are offering is authentic or could be possibly counterfeit? Will you remove all these Batum stamps that have been posted for sale now that I have brought this to your attention?
I can go on and on like this with examples.
That tells me that the buyers need to know what areas are problematic, and it is up to them whether they want to take the chance with buying something from that seller. I for one, if I were to buy counterfeit items from a seller, AND the item was not so described (meaning possible fraudulent activity), would contact PayPal and file a dispute against the seller.
While each case is, of course, different, in general, if a Seller believes they have a counterfeit stamp, and lists it as such, we would end the listing, and contact the Seller to ensure they're familiar with our terms. On the other hand, if a Seller is routinely selling counterfeit stamps, and not describing them as such - they would be suspended from our site.
In your first example, where you have stamps from Albania, and the images do not exactly match what's in the Scott Catalog, and something is "off", and you believe they're counterfeit, then no, they should not be listed.
That's entirely different than listing a stamp, which you believe to have an authentic cancel, but it hasn't been expertized.
Reproduction:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=reproduction&parent_id=0
Replica:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=replica&parent_id=0
These generally appear to be legit replicas (does the wording 'replica' in the Terms need to changed as aren't replicas a different animal to counterfeits?)
Counterfeit:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=counterfeit&parent_id=0
Fake:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=fake&parent_id=0
Forgery:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=forgery&parent_id=0
Reprint:
https://www.hipstamp.com/search?keywords=reprint&parent_id=0
Overall, I get the feeling that there is a whole lot going on here under the radar of the HipStamp staff.
What do you think can be done?
PS: I commend you for the position HipStamp has regarding counterfeits.
Thanks,
Rod
It's kind of like going to the circus, you got to see one or two clowns along with the lions..
There is no excuse whatsoever for one to "feign ignorance" about whether the stamps one buys or sells are genuine when there is a plethora of philatelic literature available to borrow from the American Philatelic Research Library as well as several legitimate online studies of stamps (e.g. Batum, classic Japan); identification and verification of expert's marks; and more, available FOR FREE on the internet.
It is especially irresponsible, and fraudulent, for any seller to "feign ignorance" about the authenticity of his offerings by pricing them "as if" they were indeed genuine. If you are uncertain about the status of your Germany inflation era cancels, or West Berlin issues, or FEA C9 and C11, or Iranian stamps, or whatever stamps, the proper thing to do is not list them at all, on Ebay or on any other venue--ever. Instead, choose to educate yourself about them by researching them--entirely at your own expense, of course--and discussing them with their collectors and noted experts at stamp shows and club meetings.
It's easy for the small number of unscrupulous sellers to fool many collectors. Why? Because a large percentage of collectors don't READ and study the catalogs. They only LOOK at the numbers, values and pictures. The constant barrage of requests for ID of a simple, and usually common, stamp when the answer is easily found, and often even pictured in the catalogs. (I'm not talking about the tough ones that drive people nutso) shows this to be true.