Of course. The national average of all retail theft is about 1 1/5 % and over the years of doing mail order I have found that the average of lost packages for me is averaging less then 0.5 % of the total sales volume. Factor in that most of those were getting lost in 4 countries and I removed those and the number has dropped to less then half of that. As a larger volume seller (In the 20 years of doing this between Ebay and Stampswants Et Al,I have shipped over 200,000 items.) The number of really bad buyers that I have had to deal with is very very small. I can count them on 1 hand. The biggest reason for having the block bidder list was due to non paying bidders which was the biggest problem and that was taken care of for the most part with Hipstamp.
If you want to find a philatelic means of selling that has a high rate of theft, try selling approvals by mail. You have to be very careful who you send stamps to. I sold approvals for several years back in the late 1980s and 1990s before the advent of the internet and internet philatelic selling sites. Some of those people are very crafty, and have very different methods of how they steal from you.
Back then there was a guy who coordinated a sort of "credit" report on collectors who bought approvals. Dealers would report the bad ones to get them on a warning list (it was a booklet actually). When that came into being, my mail approval losses dropped significantly as many names of those requesting approvals were in the booklet. Now I had many fantastic customers too, but there are a good number of vipers out there in the approvals market. Unfortunately, the guy who get the book got sick and was unable to continue it.
When StampWants came along, I still had the book, and found the names of several buyers in the book. Of course, with buy and pay before shipping, there wasn't much trouble. Some newbie internet sellers back then tended to ship and wait for payment. They often got stung.
Carol, Years ago when i started with fleabay, i gave the buyer a choice...They could have tracking or sent by normal mail at their risk...Then when fleabay began siding with the buyers on all counts , i then started to scan all sides of the package ( adress side included ) and send it via fleabay message system.... It is not because i am a nice person ( lol ) , it was to protect myself and to show fleabay it went to the exact adress on that account....Now the buyers of this world want free shipping as they dont want to pay for a thing...These last 2 days i have been thinking of placing in my lots , NORMAL MAIL AT BUYERS RISK BUT WE CAN SHIP AND ONLY WITH TRACKING IF BUYERS ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT. Just remember if the buyer only wants to pay for normal shipping and not have a tracking number, sellers cannot be blamed if it is stolen off their front porch or letterbox. On top of that i place non machinable so the usps sorting machines dont destroy what is enclosed the package... I have not yet opened a store and am just preparing about 1000 items to begin with....I have noticed in here that the items listed at a penny are the sorted after items and if that is what buyers want, then they wont get items like "SHANGHAI OVERPRINTS " , which by the way i do possess. Pictures of a few attached...Am i suppose to list these also up at a penny with no tracking when posting the package???? I can assure you that i dont want to lose these items in the mail system and also buyers that say they never received the goods when sellers have no proof if no tracking is added.. Personally if i would send this sort of thing, the buyer would pay for a normal package with tracking but i would pay the rest out of my own pocket for usps priority mail... Just remember that all these stamps can go in one package and save on fees..... So carol, is it for we sellers to protect the buyers items when shipped the best way we can or just send the package and hope for the best??....Have a nice day
Just for your information this part here means NOTHING under US contract law.
Carol, Years ago when i started with fleabay, i gave the buyer a choice...They could have tracking or sent by normal mail at their risk...Then when fleabay began siding with the buyers on all counts , i then started to scan all sides of the package ( adress side included ) and send it via fleabay message system.... It is not because i am a nice person ( lol ) , it was to protect myself and to show fleabay it went to the exact adress on that account....Now the buyers of this world want free shipping as they dont want to pay for a thing...These last 2 days i have been thinking of placing in my lots , NORMAL MAIL AT BUYERS RISK BUT WE CAN SHIP AND ONLY WITH TRACKING IF BUYERS ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.
Under US contract law the seller is ALWAYS held liable for undelivered merchandise UNTIL the buyer receives it. Tracking is NOT for the buyers sake it is ALWAYS for the sake of the seller. Whether it's Paypal,Ebay or should it be taken to small claims court in order to win those cases you MUST have proof of shipping AND proof of delivery.
Under Payapls seller protection they are very clear that in order for a seller to be protected a seller MUST have BOTH proof of shipping AND proof of delivery. Without those 2 you will loss every single time.
Contract law has nothing to do with any of this. Using a web site requires you to agree to the terms and conditions set upon you by the owners of the web site. Your only choice is to agree or not agree. If you do not agree, then you do not join. Also, you agree that the site can change the terms and conditions for usage of the site at any time that they want. As Michael D states, the rules for Ebay and PayPal are that you either send shipment using tracking, or else you take the risk and pay the consequences if a buyer claims, rightfully or falsely, that the shipment was not received. That is not in any matter, shape or form a contract.
Uniform Commercial Code › U.C.C. - ARTICLE 2 - SALES (2002) › PART 3. GENERAL OBLIGATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONTRACT › § 2-301. General Obligations of Parties. § 2-301. General Obligations of Parties.
The obligation of the seller is to transfer and deliver and that of the buyer is to accept and pay in accordance with the contract.
A contract is a legally-binding agreement which recognises and governs the rights and duties of the parties to the agreement.[1] A contract is legally enforceable because it meets the requirements and approval of the law. An agreement typically involves the exchange of goods, services, money, or promises of any of those. In the event of breach of contract, the law awards the injured party access to legal remedies such as damages and cancellation.[2]
In the Anglo-American common law, formation of a contract generally requires an offer, acceptance, consideration, and a mutual intent to be bound. Each party must have capacity to enter the contract.[3] Although most oral contracts are binding, some types of contracts may require formalities such as being in writing or by deed.[4]
Ebay for as long I can remember has had some form of language that even tells the buyer that by bidding on or purchasing an item they are entering into a CONTRACT. The language for the seller is in the terms when you list the item. The reason they can do so is because the seller is exchanging goods for money. And to top it off Ebay,Paypal and Hipstamp all have terms that state that a seller and buyer will abide by all laws. That is under the user agreements that all of us agreed to when we signed up for these sites. Most people NEVER read through those agreements.
The reason that Paypal and Ebay can have the terms and conditions that do for buyers and sellers protection is because when the buyer buys something and does NOT receive the shipment it is classified as a breech of contract. Just because a seller is using a third party shipper does NOT change the sellers liability. Any non-delivery or damages in shipping is between the seller and the shipper.
Paypal does not need to refund the fees as i have found a way to take care of that and have been doing it since 2002. It took me a little bit of money ( just under $35 ) and it snowballed for me after that. I look at it as the more fees i pay paypal, the more i am selling....
Michael, I know what a contract is. I was a contract manager for 20 years and successfully oversaw many contracts worth millions of dollars each. I also participated in the procurement process, including RFOs, RFPs, IMs, etc, and contract writing.
This is why USPS tracking is needed when shipping goods...There is then proof of the tracking number and that can be seen on the USPS website if it got received or not. I personally get my items registered or certified so i have to sign for them no matter the value of the item...Normal mail is really asking for problems all round because of dishonesty of people buying on line in these present days , receiving the item and then saying they never did. The sender cannot prove it was sent and all they can do is scan a picture of the package ans send it to the buyer via the particular website they are selling from only so the website has proof it was sent....Nowadays i take my camera with me to the post office and take a picture of it getting postmarked ( only if sent by normal mail ) so the buyer cannot say it was never sent...
You were a contract manager dealing with WRITTEN or express contracts. On ebay and Hipstamp what you are dealing with are implied contracts.
Implied contracts
An implied contract is exactly what its name would suggest: a contract that is “implied,” based on the actions of those involved. An implied contract is not written down, and its terms are not even explicitly discussed. However, a contract is assumed to legally exist due to the actions of the parties who are involved in the situation. For instance, an implied contract exists when a customer purchases a product or service. The customer assumes that the product will work as expected right out of the box, just as he also assumes he will receive the exact service he a service mechanic to perform on his car.
The number of dishonest buyers is very small with what we selling. How many buyers are really going to try and scam a seller for low value orders? Since the beginning of this year out of 1,000 orders I have had 3 people claim they did not get their orders and they had to be refunded for a grand total of $25.66. Over half of the orders are small enough for me NOT to use tracking. The vast majority of the buyers do get their orders even without tracking.
The fact that sellers are sending items off in the mail by normal mail with no tracking shows they have no proof it would be received. How do sellers know that the receiver will receive the item and still say they did not just to get the refund??? WE DONT...DO WE?? That is why tracking is so beneficial and the seller and the buyer...Also to scan the package prior to shipping it and send those pics of the package to the buyer will tell them and hipstamp what is going n and what has been sent in the mail.... It may cost a couple of minutes but if sellers cannot afford that little time to not get grief in the end, then i feel they should be last to complain....I have been scanning pictures of packages to buyers from all different sites and then the buyers know that the site has it on record what was sent...I guess as i was caught a few times many years ago, i now have to protect both myself and the buyer. Now if there is a thief in the buyers neigborhood and steals from postboxes, that is not the sellers problem but the buyers and that buyer should get a small padlock for their postbox....i guess you will never be able to fix this problem and if the buyers cant understand that the sellers are only looking out for their benefit, then this problem of stolen mail will continue...If most sellers are like me, they would already have the stamps between cardboard for protection and will not be able to be sorted out by the USPS sorting machines as they destroy packages like this....Then if the buyer does not want it sent like that , and only in a flimsy envelope to cost the cheapest shipping rate, then sellers are to blame for that as well for the stamp inside the letter machined and ruined...So you see , sellers cannot win on any counts....OIO
Living in Arizona as I do, it is easy to see things Grow & Thrive in Sunlight.. wither & fade in the shadows. Here on Hipstamp Mark & Justin have given us a wonderful platform on which to sell. My humble advise to the gentleman here who is preparing to open a new store is this. If your customers are made to feel 'Guilty until proven innocent' they will not do business with you. If they feel a demeaning lack of respect your shop will remain in the shadows and wither. I am not saying 'Give them the benefit of the doubt' I am saying there is No reason to have/feel doubt in the first place. Do not script the Humanity out of your Business Plan.. All you are doing is creating customers & opportunities for those other new shops who really try hard to earn customers loyalty and Dollars.
How do sellers know that the receiver will receive the item and still say they did not just to get the refund??? WE DONT...DO WE??
We don't but this business has been and will ALWAYS be built on a matter of a certain amount of trust between the buyers and the sellers. And it ALWAYS starts with the buyer being able to trust the seller they are buying from. This business is based on a certain amount of MUTUAL TRUST between the buyer and seller and that will never change.
With all the changes that the credit card companies,Paypal changes,Hipstamp,Ebay and the UPU making certain changes it is now far safer to ship items now then it has ever been in the last 20 years online as long as the seller follows the rules,regulations and laws.
If you start off being paranoid about the buyers getting their shipments even lower value shipments without tracking perhaps this business is NOT for you. Because that attitude will come across any time you have to deal with ANY type of problem and NOT just the shipping because one will view any type of problem as the buyer is trying to rip you off. Shipments of lower value just don't get lost as often as you think they do. It's fairly rare that they do. More often than not those shipment shave been delayed for some reason outside the control of the buyer. (Most often if I do have to refund for a "lost" shipment,the shipment shows up and I had the buyers pay for me for the delayed shipment and that happens quite often.)
As far as you taking pictures of the postal clerk cancelling the package,it's meaningless and it is NOT proof of shipment or the fact it ever LEFT your post office. You as the sender can before the PO closes have them pull that item because you made a mistake on the label or some other reason. And you can also stop shipment of any bar coded shipment before they are delivered and have them sent back to you. Sellers have tried pulling that scam before. Why do you think they required proof of DELIVERY?
Stop the picture thing it's just a waste of your and just screams scam. The pictures only prove you got the letter or package cancelled. Nothing more and nothing less. It does not PROVE you ever left it at the PO.
I normally take picture or scan of the package so the buyer knows what they will receive in the mail...I personally think that is a touch of good manners so the buyer is aware of what to receive...On top of that, i use stamps on my packages and if the buyer is missing some that i had used, it stops them from making an unecessary bid on another lot seen in hipstamp...here is a good example of a package i sent to brazil...Hal
99.9% of all buyers are honest. You are spending alot of time over 0.1% of the population. There's no need to get all paranoid over this. Take the necessary precautions to give your shipments the best chance of arriving at their destination.
You sound like the old farts who say that the internet is no good, that if you buy something on it, that it is a fraud and your money will be stolen by the sellers, so don't buy on the internet.
Just use common sense, and you most likely won't have any problem.
I think we may be having a problem with a definition of terms. You said this
The fact that sellers are sending items off in the mail by normal mail with no tracking shows they have no proof it would be received.
First what is "normal" mail for international shipments of any type of goods is to send it via first class parcel or some form or small packet rate depending on which country your shipping it from,which already includes tracking as part of the service. What is NOT normal is to send goods via international first class letter rate. That rate can include documents only. A seller that ships any goods via international first class letter rate can NOT expect that the buyer may actual receive that shipment because it can be confiscated in customs. It is illegal to ship it via first class letter rate.
What is normal for any domestic parcel is tracking is already included as part of the service also. Which is the most normal method for shipping heavier and thicker items.
Tracking is already on those and those are the proper and normal methods of shipping those shipments. On any international shipments it's a moot point about tracking if you are shipping them legally.
That by default only leaves the question of whether one is going to uprate a shipment that could go by domestic first class letter rate to get tracking for it. To get tracking on every single letter is not needed. Most of them will get there without any problems.
Comments
Back then there was a guy who coordinated a sort of "credit" report on collectors who bought approvals. Dealers would report the bad ones to get them on a warning list (it was a booklet actually). When that came into being, my mail approval losses dropped significantly as many names of those requesting approvals were in the booklet. Now I had many fantastic customers too, but there are a good number of vipers out there in the approvals market. Unfortunately, the guy who get the book got sick and was unable to continue it.
When StampWants came along, I still had the book, and found the names of several buyers in the book. Of course, with buy and pay before shipping, there wasn't much trouble. Some newbie internet sellers back then tended to ship and wait for payment. They often got stung.
Just for your information this part here means NOTHING under US contract law.
Carol, Years ago when i started with fleabay, i gave the buyer a choice...They could have tracking or sent by normal mail at their risk...Then when fleabay began siding with the buyers on all counts , i then started to scan all sides of the package ( adress side included ) and send it via fleabay message system.... It is not because i am a nice person ( lol ) , it was to protect myself and to show fleabay it went to the exact adress on that account....Now the buyers of this world want free shipping as they dont want to pay for a thing...These last 2 days i have been thinking of placing in my lots , NORMAL MAIL AT BUYERS RISK BUT WE CAN SHIP AND ONLY WITH TRACKING IF BUYERS ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.
Under US contract law the seller is ALWAYS held liable for undelivered merchandise UNTIL the buyer receives it.
Tracking is NOT for the buyers sake it is ALWAYS for the sake of the seller. Whether it's Paypal,Ebay or should it be taken to small claims court in order to win those cases you MUST have proof of shipping AND proof of delivery.
Under Payapls seller protection they are very clear that in order for a seller to be protected a seller MUST have BOTH proof of shipping AND proof of delivery. Without those 2 you will loss every single time.
§ 2-301. General Obligations of Parties.
The obligation of the seller is to transfer and deliver and that of the buyer is to accept and pay in accordance with the contract.
This is how a contract is defined
A contract is a legally-binding agreement which recognises and governs the rights and duties of the parties to the agreement.[1] A contract is legally enforceable because it meets the requirements and approval of the law. An agreement typically involves the exchange of goods, services, money, or promises of any of those. In the event of breach of contract, the law awards the injured party access to legal remedies such as damages and cancellation.[2]
In the Anglo-American common law, formation of a contract generally requires an offer, acceptance, consideration, and a mutual intent to be bound. Each party must have capacity to enter the contract.[3] Although most oral contracts are binding, some types of contracts may require formalities such as being in writing or by deed.[4]
Ebay for as long I can remember has had some form of language that even tells the buyer that by bidding on or purchasing an item they are entering into a CONTRACT. The language for the seller is in the terms when you list the item. The reason they can do so is because the seller is exchanging goods for money. And to top it off Ebay,Paypal and Hipstamp all have terms that state that a seller and buyer will abide by all laws. That is under the user agreements that all of us agreed to when we signed up for these sites. Most people NEVER read through those agreements.
The reason that Paypal and Ebay can have the terms and conditions that do for buyers and sellers protection is because when the buyer buys something and does NOT receive the shipment it is classified as a breech of contract.
Just because a seller is using a third party shipper does NOT change the sellers liability. Any non-delivery or damages in shipping is between the seller and the shipper.
It took me a little bit of money ( just under $35 ) and it snowballed for me after that. I look at it as the more fees i pay paypal, the more i am selling....
You were a contract manager dealing with WRITTEN or express contracts. On ebay and Hipstamp what you are dealing with are implied contracts.
Implied contracts
An implied contract is exactly what its name would suggest: a contract that is “implied,” based on the actions of those involved. An implied contract is not written down, and its terms are not even explicitly discussed. However, a contract is assumed to legally exist due to the actions of the parties who are involved in the situation. For instance, an implied contract exists when a customer purchases a product or service. The customer assumes that the product will work as expected right out of the box, just as he also assumes he will receive the exact service he a service mechanic to perform on his car.
https://legaldictionary.net/implied-contract/
It's the foundation that the other laws about the sellers obligations about non-delivery and the protection plans are built off of.
The number of dishonest buyers is very small with what we selling. How many buyers are really going to try and scam a seller for low value orders? Since the beginning of this year out of 1,000 orders I have had 3 people claim they did not get their orders and they had to be refunded for a grand total of $25.66. Over half of the orders are small enough for me NOT to use tracking. The vast majority of the buyers do get their orders even without tracking.
My humble advise to the gentleman here who is preparing to open a new store is this. If your customers are made to feel 'Guilty until proven innocent' they will not do business with you. If they feel a demeaning lack of respect your shop will remain in the shadows and wither.
I am not saying 'Give them the benefit of the doubt' I am saying there is No reason to have/feel doubt in the first place.
Do not script the Humanity out of your Business Plan.. All you are doing is creating customers & opportunities for those other new shops who really try hard to earn customers loyalty and Dollars.
How do sellers know that the receiver will receive the item and still say they did not just to get the refund??? WE DONT...DO WE??
We don't but this business has been and will ALWAYS be built on a matter of a certain amount of trust between the buyers and the sellers. And it ALWAYS starts with the buyer being able to trust the seller they are buying from. This business is based on a certain amount of MUTUAL TRUST between the buyer and seller and that will never change.
With all the changes that the credit card companies,Paypal changes,Hipstamp,Ebay and the UPU making certain changes it is now far safer to ship items now then it has ever been in the last 20 years online as long as the seller follows the rules,regulations and laws.
If you start off being paranoid about the buyers getting their shipments even lower value shipments without tracking perhaps this business is NOT for you. Because that attitude will come across any time you have to deal with ANY type of problem and NOT just the shipping because one will view any type of problem as the buyer is trying to rip you off. Shipments of lower value just don't get lost as often as you think they do. It's fairly rare that they do. More often than not those shipment shave been delayed for some reason outside the control of the buyer. (Most often if I do have to refund for a "lost" shipment,the shipment shows up and I had the buyers pay for me for the delayed shipment and that happens quite often.)
As far as you taking pictures of the postal clerk cancelling the package,it's meaningless and it is NOT proof of shipment or the fact it ever LEFT your post office. You as the sender can before the PO closes have them pull that item because you made a mistake on the label or some other reason. And you can also stop shipment of any bar coded shipment before they are delivered and have them sent back to you. Sellers have tried pulling that scam before. Why do you think they required proof of DELIVERY?
Stop the picture thing it's just a waste of your and just screams scam. The pictures only prove you got the letter or package cancelled. Nothing more and nothing less. It does not PROVE you ever left it at the PO.
You sound like the old farts who say that the internet is no good, that if you buy something on it, that it is a fraud and your money will be stolen by the sellers, so don't buy on the internet.
Just use common sense, and you most likely won't have any problem.
I think we may be having a problem with a definition of terms. You said this
The fact that sellers are sending items off in the mail by normal mail with no tracking shows they have no proof it would be received.
First what is "normal" mail for international shipments of any type of goods is to send it via first class parcel or some form or small packet rate depending on which country your shipping it from,which already includes tracking as part of the service. What is NOT normal is to send goods via international first class letter rate. That rate can include documents only. A seller that ships any goods via international first class letter rate can NOT expect that the buyer may actual receive that shipment because it can be confiscated in customs. It is illegal to ship it via first class letter rate.
What is normal for any domestic parcel is tracking is already included as part of the service also. Which is the most normal method for shipping heavier and thicker items.
Tracking is already on those and those are the proper and normal methods of shipping those shipments. On any international shipments it's a moot point about tracking if you are shipping them legally.
That by default only leaves the question of whether one is going to uprate a shipment that could go by domestic first class letter rate to get tracking for it. To get tracking on every single letter is not needed. Most of them will get there without any problems.