DC, I think you'll find little interest in watermark direction... I've got a USIR watermarked Postal US issue that has a CV of $1,000. I have it certed, and have been offering it for near 8 years now at $300 and have never had so much as one offer for it... And this is one where it's essentially printed on the wrong paper, let alone a watermark direction issue. The problem is, this will appeal to a VERY narrow group of specialists (I wouldn't even call them "collectors"). So dealers don't want to touch them because quite frankly, they just don't sell. It ties up big amounts of cash in an inventory that languishes for years. Coming from a dealer, we buy dozens of collections a year, and we pay top dollar (Exceeding $40,000USD) for top material. That is stuff that moves. For me the USIR stamp was among those in another collection that I discovered while watermarking them. (There were 2 in that collection). So we didn't set out to get the odd watermark either, we found it when examining a collection we'd already bought (That was a $27k collection). Lots of "mid-to-low-value" material that is MNH may still not be appealing. We have found on average that for each collection we buy, it takes about 4 years to sell it. So if I'm paying $10k for a collection, I'm not going to get full realization on that $10k for 4 years. So this is where I want to ensure I am making at least 40% margin on what I'm selling, otherwise, there is just no point, and if all the dealers die off then so does the industry. I think you're being a bit harsh in your expectation of a dealers reviewing your material. I also read something interesting a few weeks ago. An article on the psychology of sales. The comparison they were showing was that when we "own" something, we automatically value it higher. In their example, they mentioned concert tickets. And someone bought 2 tickets, and then immediately wanted to sell them for 3x the cost. BUT, there were still plenty of tickets available even at the time of the concert. So anyone could get tickets at a box office rate, while this person wanted to sell their at 300% markup. Because, ownership "increases perception of value". This is the hard part for you. You may even be reasonable in your assessment of CV as your base for them, but the market doesn't always reflect CV (most of the time doesn't, one side or the other). As someone who's done this for decades, and I've seen your material, I'm not surprised at the response. I can glance through a collection in minutes and tell you what I'm willing to offer on it. And if I have any interest at all... The other thing is I won't buy a collection that doesn't have a significant amount of "valuable material". Because this is as a dealer, where you really make the money. No one is getting rich selling $1 stamps. (No one is even making a living doing that...) Philately is a very tough game. You have to do your homework and you have to dedicate years to getting it right. It's an incredibly complex market. And countries go hot and cold, as does particular materials like revenues versus postal. It's a little like the stock market sometimes.
One other thing to remember about "collectors"... why do collectors collect, and what do they collect? Funny enough, you'll find a vast majority collect "what they have an album page for". In other words, if the issue doesn't appear in their album, there's no "need to collect it". The albums I've seen don't include watermark variants, even errors like the 271a and 272a. So the interest has to come from a highly specialized collector. And while they exist, they are a much narrower field of buyers. And because of that, they tend to have the supply/demand advantage, and get the material at much lower than CV... It's a tough market for watermark variants.
You also need to realize that many of the sellers would have very little interest in it because they don't handle that type of material. Are US sellers really going to want to handle a worldwide collection when they have no call for it because they built their business around specializing in US? Newer issue sellers would have no call for it either because they don't sell older issues for the most part. Same thing with the topical sellers.
I agree with this assessment, and still am quite enjoying the hunt for nice stamps. In a way, I avoided the hobby entirely for well over 2 decades due to the objective nature really of stamps in favor of coins and metals (which also can be quite objective, especially in this market). Until federal reserves take their foot off the gas, and we start having losses at the ordinary person level, we won't get real deals on much with prices being inflated on many such things.
With that being said, stamps are seemingly no different. An objective market item that only has resale value for what someone is going to pay for it. With that said, I think some underestimate the complexity of what I have here. Remember, this is already 120 years of collecting covering over 11k stamps so far starting in the mid 19th century and i'm going to carry the torch as far as I want to go with it. So, for the average dealer to not listen well enough to that is beyond me. Think about it, IF a dealer shows no interest, is there resalability in the first place? Maybe like you said, only to a collector.
Aside from that, me building a database of ALL stamps in these books is a gruesome journey so far. I spend hours researching the stamps (I am not pros like you guys and gals) in the scotts guides I ordered and I am cataloging all of it. Indeed, most of the stamps I've acquired so far carry a majority of the value in each book. With all of that being said, I think its only fair at this point to really PLAY AROUND with the objectivity of said items. For instance, what a cruel joke if I turn a non desirable item into a hidden treasure map of rare(r) and unusual stamps. Of course I must do this now you see, just to prove a point. The point being, technically stamps aren't worth squat, unless as someone mentioned earlier, someone will pay you for them.
Not sure what you mean by "play around with the objectivity of said items"? You're talking a bit cryptic. I'm only trying to caution that, some items of value have very narrow markets.
Here's a sales lesson: I can sell anything cheap. There's no skill in that. What to buy a scott #1 with for margins for $10? Of course you do! So that's not hard to sell that way. But to sell value takes real skill. And part of that skill is matching buyer with seller. For some material, Hipstamp is well suited to that, for others, specialist collectors groups are a better target. You have to "work the streets", not just the dealers who you think could get a good deal from you. Some things are suited to eBay or Kelleher or Siegel. They all have their market strengths.
And your database build is exactly how "pros" go about it too. Everyone has to pay their dues, and really get in and study these issues if they want to be expert at it. It's a giant field even when you narrow it to a single country.
Keep at it. You'll either become a pro too, or have a psychotic episode.
Hahaha, I think a psychotic episode is in the cards first at this rate. I'm just past cracking into France and some French Morocco and man, its seriously difficult with some types (type 1's and type 2's) etc.
As for the playing with the objectivity of it what I meant was, I think all stamps are awesome. However, the value based on condition usage, color, and authenticity of course can cause a great variation in one stamp, to the point of changing a collection in a large way. Take the common 25c stamps that have comprised 80%+ of this book so far. At 5c per stamp, not too shabby if I have 32k stamps! But if I'm off by a dollar, thats a huge difference in total value etc. As you know.
So, I am planning on building several mint global sets and layering them in the books. I went to a large stamp show recently and there were also many dealers there selling some material for 50% to 80% off Scott's listing catalog values. I bought a lot and I'm filling these up along with the spreadsheets as I go. It is much easier (and faster) when I know what I just bought VS having to identify each stamp by look up.
Still, good chat, and I will post some of my progress so far. I do have some GB color variation questions coming up that are pertinent (mainly concerning king George GB stamp issues).
I bought some France unused imperf 12a and 22 etc, and just going through the going, enjoying filling in the gaps. Its like a huge puzzle with gaps in it, and that Scott...that is what is going to make me crazy!
I have found that it is better for me to start out crazy, then things just make me....crazier. I'm kind of looking forward to...craziest. I think then, and only then, I will finally understand my cats. Have fun hombre'!
DC, one thing it sounds you've dialed in is keeping track of what is what. There is nothing worse than IDing the same stamp over and over and over... We have a rule: ID once, and only once. By that it means, make sure that the stamp is then tagged somehow so that we know what it is going forward. It's such a time suck to have to keep IDing the same stamp (even when it's an obvious ID, but you have to check the book for the number again). With, as you say, thousands of items, it just becomes a giant mess. So you're doing well to have learned that lesson early (took me a decade or two. ><
It's fun to see how far you've progressed in the past few weeks.
I am happy to report that I bought a mystery box of stamps at the show, and it was probably the best 30 bucks I spent. There was 40k stamps in the box. I found probably 50 unused mint stamps from the 1958 and prior era, some hinged (which works for me). I even found a few unused USA revenue stamps in the bunch so that was exciting.
I found about 200 more mint circa '60's and '70's stamps too, so that was cool. I totally should list some on hip stamp im getting so many....
I'm totally hooked. It's become a sickness, like catching all of the pokemon...except these Pokémon can bankrupt you! Heck, I think I'm into hipstamp for some cheese already, but its a pretty good service overall. Had a few instances of incorrect stamp ID but nothing too terrible, and I honestly have kept them anyways.
Thanks! I had help from some pretty awesome pros....! Seriously though, I have some whopper questions in identifying Russian and USA stamps accurately coming up here in a bit, so dust off the noggin cause I'm going to need it!
So, I'm going to ask two questions as I pause pics and cataloging for a bit, just organizing like scott suggested, and also starting over with all 3 books at the same time for efficiency (I was only to Czechoslovakia so not too bad).
So here are the questions...
If a stamp is on an envelope and "used" but not postmarked by the cancel, is it considered used?
Similarly, I had ONE instance when clearing out the 40k insanity box where somehow a stamp was used, and the person literally put a stamp over the top of it! So there were two stamps there (top used, bottom new). So, same question as above in an instance like this?
If a stamp has passed through the mail service but did not get cancelled, it has been used, period. It most certainly will be ungummed if removed from the cover, so not mint, and if, on cover, still not mint. I most certainly, in either case, not describe the item as even "unused". Unused does not mean, necessarily, uncancelled or un-postmarked. It means, unused, and in my descriptions, it also means unused but not mint. Hope this helps.
Very much so thank you. Yes I technically thought it meant used also. I have several coming out of this box that are unused, and some used but that missed the cancel meter.
How do you know they were used but missed the cancel meter? There's another thread dedicated almost entierly to this discussion. Here's the question: If you gave this to an expert, and it was soaked off cover, how would the expert be able to tell the difference between one used, but missed cancellation that is now no gum, versus a stamp that simply had the gum soaked off?
Now, on the other hand, this point really only matters up to a point where CV is "tracked" for no gum stamps. On a modern stamp, majority are the same value used or unused, and really only becomes a point if someone is specifically collecting used, or, specifically wants gummed unused stamps.
Some are still on the envelope and I can see the metering missed it but got the stamp next to it....one (like my example above) was literally underneath a much larger stamp, so when I soaked them TWO fell off and the top was heavily metered and the bottom was 100% covered up.
Right, so without any strike of a cancel at all, even though you've soaked this off a cover, there is no forensic way to determine how it "lost it's gum". For description purposes, it is an unused stamp, without gum.
Now if it was printed after around 1900 it's not going to matter, so NG by that stage is already considered the same as "used" (in most cases... I'm sure someone can find something out there in the vast sea of catalogs that defeats that statement) but it's going to hold true more than 99% of the time.
As always, thank you both for your skill and expertise in this field. I need it because I'm working in getting better constantly with this craft (reading, asking the pros here, etc). Stamps seem to be a dying art unfortunately, and my generation (i don't relate to many of them) only cares about digital bs which usually worthless.
I want to carry some old school skills onward, and I believe this craft is totally worth it.
Oh and you think my Russian and some (light) usa questions will be challenging....wait until you see my Germany section! This will blow you away!!! (I've thought that a lot and it rarely does, but maybe I just love stamps.....)
Ok here goes. Going through all 3 at the same time is the way to go. However....Australia is proving to be difficult. Let me explain briefly.
The mint stamp i bought from a dealer on here whom I still have nothing bad to say about, and is (was sold to me as) Australia 2h. I think it is because of the obvious break directly in front of the kangaroo face on the inside border line.
The second used is also from same dealer said to be AUS 2. I believe him to be a fair dealer, no questions or problems there.
So HERE'S THE QUESTION(S) . Third is one adhered to said book..... It was already down and I cannot examine the watermark yet. So, this question is about the third stamp and is a multi question. Can anyone identify it as type (the break seems to be in the dye OPPOSITE the other type h.... second does the color run if I iced that one stamp? I need to remove it and check it for inverted watermarks etc in that issue but it is adhered to that book and I am significantly better with removal at this point. Suggestions? Thanks!
Comments
I think you'll find little interest in watermark direction... I've got a USIR watermarked Postal US issue that has a CV of $1,000. I have it certed, and have been offering it for near 8 years now at $300 and have never had so much as one offer for it... And this is one where it's essentially printed on the wrong paper, let alone a watermark direction issue. The problem is, this will appeal to a VERY narrow group of specialists (I wouldn't even call them "collectors"). So dealers don't want to touch them because quite frankly, they just don't sell. It ties up big amounts of cash in an inventory that languishes for years. Coming from a dealer, we buy dozens of collections a year, and we pay top dollar (Exceeding $40,000USD) for top material. That is stuff that moves. For me the USIR stamp was among those in another collection that I discovered while watermarking them. (There were 2 in that collection). So we didn't set out to get the odd watermark either, we found it when examining a collection we'd already bought (That was a $27k collection). Lots of "mid-to-low-value" material that is MNH may still not be appealing.
We have found on average that for each collection we buy, it takes about 4 years to sell it. So if I'm paying $10k for a collection, I'm not going to get full realization on that $10k for 4 years. So this is where I want to ensure I am making at least 40% margin on what I'm selling, otherwise, there is just no point, and if all the dealers die off then so does the industry.
I think you're being a bit harsh in your expectation of a dealers reviewing your material.
I also read something interesting a few weeks ago. An article on the psychology of sales. The comparison they were showing was that when we "own" something, we automatically value it higher. In their example, they mentioned concert tickets. And someone bought 2 tickets, and then immediately wanted to sell them for 3x the cost. BUT, there were still plenty of tickets available even at the time of the concert. So anyone could get tickets at a box office rate, while this person wanted to sell their at 300% markup. Because, ownership "increases perception of value". This is the hard part for you. You may even be reasonable in your assessment of CV as your base for them, but the market doesn't always reflect CV (most of the time doesn't, one side or the other). As someone who's done this for decades, and I've seen your material, I'm not surprised at the response. I can glance through a collection in minutes and tell you what I'm willing to offer on it. And if I have any interest at all... The other thing is I won't buy a collection that doesn't have a significant amount of "valuable material". Because this is as a dealer, where you really make the money. No one is getting rich selling $1 stamps. (No one is even making a living doing that...) Philately is a very tough game. You have to do your homework and you have to dedicate years to getting it right. It's an incredibly complex market. And countries go hot and cold, as does particular materials like revenues versus postal. It's a little like the stock market sometimes.
Funny enough, you'll find a vast majority collect "what they have an album page for". In other words, if the issue doesn't appear in their album, there's no "need to collect it". The albums I've seen don't include watermark variants, even errors like the 271a and 272a. So the interest has to come from a highly specialized collector. And while they exist, they are a much narrower field of buyers. And because of that, they tend to have the supply/demand advantage, and get the material at much lower than CV... It's a tough market for watermark variants.
You also need to realize that many of the sellers would have very little interest in it because they don't handle that type of material. Are US sellers really going to want to handle a worldwide collection when they have no call for it because they built their business around specializing in US? Newer issue sellers would have no call for it either because they don't sell older issues for the most part. Same thing with the topical sellers.
I agree with this assessment, and still am quite enjoying the hunt for nice stamps. In a way, I avoided the hobby entirely for well over 2 decades due to the objective nature really of stamps in favor of coins and metals (which also can be quite objective, especially in this market). Until federal reserves take their foot off the gas, and we start having losses at the ordinary person level, we won't get real deals on much with prices being inflated on many such things.
With that being said, stamps are seemingly no different. An objective market item that only has resale value for what someone is going to pay for it. With that said, I think some underestimate the complexity of what I have here. Remember, this is already 120 years of collecting covering over 11k stamps so far starting in the mid 19th century and i'm going to carry the torch as far as I want to go with it. So, for the average dealer to not listen well enough to that is beyond me. Think about it, IF a dealer shows no interest, is there resalability in the first place? Maybe like you said, only to a collector.
Aside from that, me building a database of ALL stamps in these books is a gruesome journey so far. I spend hours researching the stamps (I am not pros like you guys and gals) in the scotts guides I ordered and I am cataloging all of it. Indeed, most of the stamps I've acquired so far carry a majority of the value in each book. With all of that being said, I think its only fair at this point to really PLAY AROUND with the objectivity of said items. For instance, what a cruel joke if I turn a non desirable item into a hidden treasure map of rare(r) and unusual stamps. Of course I must do this now you see, just to prove a point. The point being, technically stamps aren't worth squat, unless as someone mentioned earlier, someone will pay you for them.
I'm only trying to caution that, some items of value have very narrow markets.
Here's a sales lesson: I can sell anything cheap. There's no skill in that. What to buy a scott #1 with for margins for $10? Of course you do! So that's not hard to sell that way. But to sell value takes real skill. And part of that skill is matching buyer with seller. For some material, Hipstamp is well suited to that, for others, specialist collectors groups are a better target. You have to "work the streets", not just the dealers who you think could get a good deal from you. Some things are suited to eBay or Kelleher or Siegel. They all have their market strengths.
And your database build is exactly how "pros" go about it too. Everyone has to pay their dues, and really get in and study these issues if they want to be expert at it. It's a giant field even when you narrow it to a single country.
Keep at it. You'll either become a pro too, or have a psychotic episode.
As for the playing with the objectivity of it what I meant was, I think all stamps are awesome. However, the value based on condition usage, color, and authenticity of course can cause a great variation in one stamp, to the point of changing a collection in a large way. Take the common 25c stamps that have comprised 80%+ of this book so far. At 5c per stamp, not too shabby if I have 32k stamps! But if I'm off by a dollar, thats a huge difference in total value etc. As you know.
So, I am planning on building several mint global sets and layering them in the books. I went to a large stamp show recently and there were also many dealers there selling some material for 50% to 80% off Scott's listing catalog values. I bought a lot and I'm filling these up along with the spreadsheets as I go. It is much easier (and faster) when I know what I just bought VS having to identify each stamp by look up.
Still, good chat, and I will post some of my progress so far. I do have some GB color variation questions coming up that are pertinent (mainly concerning king George GB stamp issues).
It's fun to see how far you've progressed in the past few weeks.
I found about 200 more mint circa '60's and '70's stamps too, so that was cool. I totally should list some on hip stamp im getting so many....
So here are the questions...
If a stamp is on an envelope and "used" but not postmarked by the cancel, is it considered used?
Similarly, I had ONE instance when clearing out the 40k insanity box where somehow a stamp was used, and the person literally put a stamp over the top of it! So there were two stamps there (top used, bottom new). So, same question as above in an instance like this?
There's another thread dedicated almost entierly to this discussion.
Here's the question:
If you gave this to an expert, and it was soaked off cover, how would the expert be able to tell the difference between one used, but missed cancellation that is now no gum, versus a stamp that simply had the gum soaked off?
Now, on the other hand, this point really only matters up to a point where CV is "tracked" for no gum stamps. On a modern stamp, majority are the same value used or unused, and really only becomes a point if someone is specifically collecting used, or, specifically wants gummed unused stamps.
Now if it was printed after around 1900 it's not going to matter, so NG by that stage is already considered the same as "used" (in most cases... I'm sure someone can find something out there in the vast sea of catalogs that defeats that statement) but it's going to hold true more than 99% of the time.
I want to carry some old school skills onward, and I believe this craft is totally worth it.
The mint stamp i bought from a dealer on here whom I still have nothing bad to say about, and is (was sold to me as) Australia 2h. I think it is because of the obvious break directly in front of the kangaroo face on the inside border line.
The second used is also from same dealer said to be AUS 2. I believe him to be a fair dealer, no questions or problems there.
So HERE'S THE QUESTION(S) . Third is one adhered to said book..... It was already down and I cannot examine the watermark yet. So, this question is about the third stamp and is a multi question. Can anyone identify it as type (the break seems to be in the dye OPPOSITE the other type h.... second does the color run if I iced that one stamp? I need to remove it and check it for inverted watermarks etc in that issue but it is adhered to that book and I am significantly better with removal at this point. Suggestions? Thanks!